I was supposed to be working earlier, until a friend asked this question on Facebook: Do you guys think Batman is a vigilante or a superhero.
I will turn 34 in a few days, and yet I spent a good portion of this evening arguing my case (he's a superhero). What follows is a transcript of the discussion that followed, involving me and my friends Jerry, Phil and Frank:
Phil: Shannon and I are having a debate: She says Batman is a superhero; and I say, since he doesn't have super powers, he's a vigilante.
Jerry: But he has access to "super" equipment. As he's stronger, faster, more agile, smarter, and with more stamina than the average person, the equipment makes up for any shortcomings and pushes him over the edge. He couldn't take on a tank like Superman, but he could probably take out a company of soldiers without anyone knowing he was there.
Jerry: But he has access to "super" equipment. As he's stronger, faster, more agile, smarter, and with more stamina than the average person, the equipment makes up for any shortcomings and pushes him over the edge. He couldn't take on a tank like Superman, but he could probably take out a company of soldiers without anyone knowing he was there.
Tom: Yeah, I side with Shannon on this one. If a regular guy did what Batman did (i.e., wandered his city beating up criminals without due process), I'd say he's a vigilante.
But Batman's traveled the world, fought supernatural/otherworldly beings. His own assortment of villains includes people that go beyond just regular criminals. And -- in the hierarchy of D.C. superheroes, ranks only below Superman and Wonder Woman in terms of who other characters look to for leadership, even if he just wants to be left alone.
Phil: I see your points and concede.
Tom: The Punisher, though? Complete vigilante. (And pointless to read unless it's under Marvel's "mature readers" banner.)
Frank: I would disagree with Shannon...He is a vigilante. Take off the out fit, and a 9mm can kill him as quick as anything else. Sure he's smart, but take away the money, and he's just a smart guy kicking people's asses. Superman, Wonder woman, etc. only have one or two weaknesses a piece...thus conferring upon them "Super Hero" status. "Super" meaning above the abilities of a common man. Can Bruce Wayne fly unaided? No. Can he hold his breath indefinately? No. If Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, or hell, even me (if I won the lottery) had the inclination, they could do the same.
Frank: @ Tom: By your rationale, PopEye the sailor man would be a super hero. He travelled the world. He beat Brutus' ass & foiled plots...would that get him a pass to Superman status? I think not.
Phil: Ok. I withdraw my concession. I've always felt Bruce Wayne's super power is being rich. He is smart, maybe even genius level, but he has help. Also, anyone, with the proper training would be able to fight as well as him.
I would argue that PopEye is a super hero in the same way The Green Lantern is a super hero. Without the power ring the Lantern is nothing, just like PopEye without spinach.
Frank: Phil, down enough PCP, wear black tights, and wield a baseball bat, and you can be just like Batman.
It all comes down to the bullet rule. Unaided, if a hero is shot at, and cannot block/forsee/teleport, and will die if hit, they are a vigilante. Look at Aquaman & Martian ManHunter. They are the laughing stock of the Justice league, but Aquaman can talk to fucking fish. Can Bruce Wayne do that? Aquaman can have flipper jump out of the water & take a round for the team. Bruce Wayne? Shit, Dirty Harry wore a bullet proof vest. Martian Manhunter? Ok, he looses his shit around fire, but he can fly & shape shift. Bruce Wayne? He just puts on some make-up. Sure Bruce is keeps his cool during a fire, but seal the inferno off? He just as dead as you or me. At least the Manhunter has the skills to escape, just not the spine.
Tom: You guys really wanna debate ME about Batman? I point you to JLA: New World Order, in which he virtually takes down a Martian invasion force. No, he didn't have powers, just his wits/strength/technology. But I'd argue it's HOW he uses those wits/strengths/technology that makes him a superhero.
And I'm pretty sure Batman -- at least since the Frank Miller days -- wears some sort of armor.
And if Aquaman's repertoire actually included getting dolphins to jump out of water into the path of bullets, he'd be considered a lot less lame.
Frank: Thats the point. He wears armor! In JLA, he just used his intellect to win, and he was underestimated because he was only a man. How many times has he had is ass kicked so bad he couldn't recover? If he was so super, why isn't Jason Todd around to watch his back? Perhaps if he could read minds, fly, or anything interesting, the lad would still be with us.
Tom, he is a vigilante. He is an extraordinary vigilante, but a vigilante in the same vein as the Punisher.
Frank: At least Aquaman only lost his hand, and not his side kick (oh, I did go there!)
Tom: Nothing would've saved Jason Todd, who apparently did have a superpower: Extreme Unlikability. And blame Batman for Aquaman losing his hand, part of the whole "we need ALL our comic characters to have a dark side" phase that thankfully died out in the 90s.
Frank: Another comparison: Examine the character Anarchy...he is, undemiably, a vigilante. He has a glorified stun gun, a costume, and a modicum of intellegence. But in the end, he just shocks the crap out of people who challenges his vision of justice. Batman is the same, only due to wealth, he can go to Brookstone to buy his gadgets, and not Radio Shack.
Tom: Christ...Anarchy. We're really getting into obscure Batman lore here. But I stand by my earlier statement: Someone's status as a superhero involves not the powers/abilities they have, but what they do. If all Batman did was beat up random purse snatchers, sure. But his story involves so much more than that.
Where do you guys stand on Iron Man, who also needed extreme wealth/advanced technology to get where he is?
Frank: Vigilante. Without the suit, a bullet can kill him as easily as anyone else. And its the Brookstone Paradigm...he can afford better gadgets. Does his gear come from Krypton? Can he alter magnetic fields unaided? Nope. Just a dude in an armored suit, beating people /things to fit his vision of justice.
Tom: Daredevil would also be a vigilante then?
Frank: Nope. He had that "radar / Sonar" thing going on. He could instinctively dodge about 90% of the crap thrown at him, and he never really wore armor.
I don't know where to place Barbara Gordon/Oracle/BatGirl.
Tom: Well, there was a period -- again, the let's revamp all our characters period in the 90s -- where DD had armor. But let's not speak of those days.
How about this: Let's say there was a character with almost identical abilities to, say, Superman. But rather than tackling villains on the level of, say, Braniac or Darkseid, all he did was fly around and keep rapists off the street. Would he be a superhero, or a vigilante?
Frank: If he is capable of independent, unaided flight, due to unnatural abilities / the yellow sun / random mutations, etc, and all be does is beat down pan handlers, Jehovahs Witnesses, and muggers, then he/she is still a superhero. Tom, could a bullet kill him/her w/out body armor? No, thus the "Super" part.
Phil, is Shannon converted yet?
Tom: OK, so for you, basically, the "super" part of the word clearly outweighs the "hero."
And that's it for me, at least for now. I have stories to write, none of which, sadly, involve Batman.
Frank: Batman is a hero. But "Super"? Nope. My cat just threw up. Shit.
Phil: Hahah. I was putting G to bed. Frank - Shannon is sticking to her guns. My opinion:
Technically they're all vigilantes (are any of them government sanctioned?) so let's say this:
Batman and Ironman are both heroes.
Superman, Wonder Woman and Daredevil are super heroes.
Super powers (meaning otherworldly powers, such as flight, super strength, precognition) are what make one a "super" hero.
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